Five years ago,DC’sJokerbecame the newFight Clubfor a generation of movie fans, connecting with so many different audience quadrants that it blew impressively past the billion dollar box office milestone. In 2024, in the immediate wake ofJoker: Folie a Deux’s release, it’s impossible not to be shocked at the apathy or outright rage at the sequel. This should have been a slam dunk, building onJoker’s shocking ending, and instead early signs point to a flop of epic proportions that has kicked off a tsunami of outrage. At the heart of that is one question: who exactly was this movie for?
The problem withJoker: Folie à Deux, no matter how you might feel about it, is that it simply doesn’t seem to care about the majority of fans most invested in a sequel. And as a result, the audience - including those who haven’t and won’t see it - will be completely lost on who it was even made for. So let’s break down this entire mess, andwhyJoker 2’s box office is so bad. And let’s discuss the groups who might be weighing up whether to see theJokersequel, and how it’ll actually work for them.
Joker: Folie à Deux Is Very Clear About Its Thoughts On Some Original Fans
While the discourse has already taken the stance thatJoker: Folie à Deux’sendingis a provocative response to the supposedly toxic element of the original film’s fanbase, it would be unfair to say everyone who liked the original liked it for that reason. It is also important to acknowledge thatJokerwas beloved by a lot more people who didn’t see Arthur as someone to emulate, but rather someone who it was very difficult not to sympathize with. A cause in a different way.
Then there are those who enjoyedJokerand recognized the dangerous influence it would go on to have. The sequel doesn’t just acknowledge the fact that the original was taken different ways, it literally creates three characters representing the split:Lady Gaga’sHarley Quinnas the radical, Harvey Dent as the cynic, and Catherine Keener’s Maryanne Stewart as the sympathetic viewer. The problem, really, is that there is no vagueness about who is “right” in Folie à Deux, because Phillips chose not to encourage the same sort of open interpretation as the first film embraced.
Joker: Folie à Deux Cast & DC Character Guide
Joaquin Phoenix returns Arthur Fleck in Todd Phillips’s Joker: Folie à Deux - we rundown the cast of the Joker sequel and their roles in the film.
In that respect,it’s important to think of “originalJoker” fans as different groups, without any assumption of who is right, and who isn’t. As director Todd Phillips said back in 2019, interpretation was always heartily encouraged:
“This movie requires a certain amount of participation from the audience. It’s up to you how you want to interpret it and experience it. It’s less you being kind of presented with the facts than you being presented with these possibilities.”
But then the sequel removes the choice of that participation, because Arthur is on trial, and so is the original audience. Arthur is deconstructed into a more realistic reflection of what he was always supposed to be: pathetic and worthy of pity. When you’ve unwittingly created an everyman hero, and made it absolutely clear that his crimes are a reaction to abuse he suffered and a society that tramples him, it’s very difficult to put the genie back in the bottle.
What Happened Between Joker 1 & 2
The timeline between Joker and Joker: Folie à Deux means there was a lot of changes and inciting incidents that happen in the time between the movies.
Oneparticularly persistent reading of the originalJoker’s ending took it as a comment on societal victimization, and Arthur both as a symbol for outrage and a call-to-arms.Jokerwas taken as a comment on how people fall through the cracks, how corrupt institutions betray the least powerful members, and on mental health generally. Inevitably, someJokerfans saw the original movie as a voice for people like Arthur. People, perhaps, like them, albeit in an exaggerated way. For them to then be told that Arthur’s empowerment never mattered was never going to land well, just as certain fans ofFight Clubrejected the insistence that Tyler Durden was always satire.
The other camp ofJoker’s original fans are those who saw less of an activist message in it and more of the tragedy of how Arthur’s story didn’t end up belonging to him. This feels like the group Phillips himself belongs to, given how the sequel plays out, and it feels like who the intended audience really is. Whether that was an intelligent business move is a different matter, but viewed together, without the noisy discourse of the last 5 years,Joker: Folie à Deuxmakes perfect sense if you interpretedJokerthat certain way.
We were all always supposed to accept the fact that everything that happens inJokeris Arthur’s version of the events, asTodd Phillips previously revealed, when talking about Arthur as an unreliable narrator:
“It’s just the version this guy is telling in this room at a mental institution. I don’t know that he’s the most reliable narrator in the world, you know what I’m saying?”
In that respect,Jokerwas always just about Arthur’s story, whichFolie à Deuxvery pointedly underlines. He reclaims his story from the escalated version that his “followers” - including Harley Quinn - have chosen to believe. Todd Phillips has been accused of burning down his first movie to change how it’s perceived, which is why this group of fans of the originals are currently so outraged.
Phillips is reclaiming Arthur’s story, and the meaning ofJoker, and it’s a provocative, controversial choice. It is, however, his right as a film-maker, and it feels very much likehe had his Oppenheimer moment, and made the sequel for the smallest possible audience: himself.Going from a call for open interpretation to something so closed off is jarring, even for those who enjoyed the sequel.
How DC Comics Fans Will Feel About Joker: Folie à Deux
Joker: Folie à Deuxis not for DC purists, just as HBO’sThe Penguinis provocative in its aversion to comic book lore. Somewhat ironically, the Joker was adopted by Todd Phillips and his co-writer Scott Silver as an idea, rather than as a character to purely adapt. While Phillips always said that Alan Moore and Brian Bolland‘s “The Killing Joke” was a key inspiration, he also spoke toThe LA Timesin 2019 about the creative freedom that inherently came as part ofJoker:
“I loved that we could take this fictional character and do what we wanted with it,” he said. “It was one of the most fun scripts to write because you were only breaking rules.”
Really,Jokerwas never for DC comics fans in the same way most comic book movies are, and it was a happy accident that so many of them enjoyed it. What you don’t see in the original movie’s reception is praise for its accurate depiction of the source material, because that was never a transaction anyone should have expected.
The same goes forJoker: Folie à Deux. It has more DC characters, thanks to the presence of Harley Quinn and Harvey Dent, but they’re rough approximations: Dent is an assistant DA who cares about justice, and Harley is a devoted fan, buttheir adaptations have a very casual relationship with the source.
What About Harley Quinn Fans?
In 2024, Harley Quinn is a big brand. Margot Robbie’s version was one of the few redeeming parts of David Ayer’sSuicide Squad, and you don’t have to look far to see loud calls for her to return to James Gunn’s DCU after he brought her back for his ownThe Suicide Squad. She also has her own long-running animated series, tends to steal focus when she appears in video games (even universally derided ones), and Halloween sees countless dollars invested in recapturing her look.
With that all in mind,Joker: Folie à Deuxscored a big pre-release win in announcing her part in the story. After all,what better a character to bring into a tale of dangerous idolization than the one who was literally created as Joker’s chief cheerleader? Lady Gaga’s version of the character is very different from the image of the abused, besotted former psychiatrist, but giving her greater agency and imagining her as a dark reflection of Arthur, rather than an active creation of him is an inspired move.
Lady Gaga’s Harley Quinn Explained & How She’s Different
Lady Gaga’s portrayal of Harley Quinn in Joker: Folie à Deux differs from previous iterations, although the character’s core tenets persist.
That said, Harley’s comparatively limited screentime is a sticking point.She is excellent as Harley, and thoroughly believable, but for anyone wanting to engage with this new take on Harley, she’s too sparsely used.For anyone wanting a pure adaptation, disappointment is assured, but it doesn’t feel fair to hold her to standards that Joaquin Phoenix’s radical Joker redesign wasn’t subjected to. All the same, it’s important to nod to the reality of the situation for some.
And What About Lady Gaga Fans?
Lady Gaga’s involvement inJoker: Folie à Deuxfeels like a calculated decision, just as casting Oscar winners as impressive as Joaquin Phoenix and Robert De Niro first time out. But of course, Gaga is a different prospect entirely, becauseshe has a kind of fame that movie stars can’t aspire to these days: she’s a pop icon with a fandom that has its own name.It might have been safe to assume that, like Swifties, Little Monsters can be depended on to come out for their hero.
To get on your level for a moment: let’s just say mother ate. To phrase it for anyone older than the Internet Age, Lady Gaga is excellent, as I’ve already said, and complaints about her limited screentime are testament to that. She sings well, of course - though by her own admission she changed her voice to reflect the character - and her acting is great, butis this really the kind of movie Gaga fans want to see?
She’s stripped back, dropped into a grim world, where a court case is the central narrative element. Perhaps I missed it, but I’m not sure that there’s a lot of overlap between fans of “Bad Romance” and those ofA Time To Kill. Word of mouth already also rapidly spread that she wasn’t inJoker: Folie à Deuxmuch (or enough, depending on how she was received) and this isn’t her project the wayA Star Is Bornwas back in 2018. So while she’s great, it’s hard to justify the idea that this movie is aimed at fans of Lady Gaga.
Is Joker: Folie à Deux For Casual Audiences? Musical Fans?
For a movie to go from a hundreds of millions of dollars prospect to a billion dollar prospect, casual general audiences have to come out to see it. ButJoker: Folie à Deuxflew its flag pretty high in a way that that was always going to be difficult, which is why there’s so much outrage about the perception of how it alienates a lot of the original’s fans.
For a start, it’s rated R - not a problem forDeadpool & Wolverine, of course, but there are R-rated movies and there are R-rated movies, and it’s a rating that is generally avoided because it limits audience reach. Joker and its fellow high-performing R-rated movies are exceptions, not patterns to follow. Then there’s the fact that it’s a musical, which immediately limits broad reach again. Unless a movie has Broadway behind it, or Disney, musicals are difficult. Combine R-rated and musical, and you have a near impossible prospect.
Joker 2: What’s Real & What Is In Arthur’s Mind
Joker: Folies a Deux frequently transitions between reality and Joker’s delusions, blurring the line so effective that it keeps viewers guessing.
Yes, there are exceptions, of course, but even the best ones -Once,The Rocky Horror Picture Show, andThe Blues Brothers- have become great with the caveat of being cult classics. And rather problematically,Joker: Folie à Deux’sstatus as a musical was contested by its own creators from early in the marketing campaign. Despite it being a musical. Sort of.The messaging was so confused that whatever audience exists who will come out to watch any musical wouldn’t have bought in.
In general,Joker: Folie à Deuxis just too odd to really capture any kind of major casual audience, possibly too provocative for its own good, and seems to revel in both points. It doesn’t go far enough as a musical, and is too musical at the same time. It is a statement, but the very fact that Warner Bros ever greenlit it in its current form is a wonder that those of us who actually like it should cherish as an anomaly.
So Who Is Joker: Folie à Deux Really For, Then?
Thesad reality ofJoker: Folie à Deuxis that it’s for too few people to justify its reported $200m budget. It’s a bold, shudderingly brave move by Todd Phillips that I genuinely liked a lot, but I’m not one to suggest that my opinion is right, and the many people who have crushed its Audience Score on RottenTomatoes, or the people who simply aren’t coming out to see it are all wrong. I’m not being contrarian here, I likedJoker: Folie à Deuxso much that I wish everyone else did.
I believe it will find an audience on streaming, and not just with the perversely fascinated, but it would be foolish not to acknowledge that the marketing campaign and the film’s entire point was rather inelegantly handled.I have the sneaking suspicion that the movie has achieved exactly what it wanted to: provocation,but instead of the positive provocation inspired by its predecessor, the sequel has committed the cardinal sin of alienating its most vocal audience.
Will Joker 3 Happen? Everything We Know
Joker: Folie A Deux’s twisted ending sets up a surprising future for the franchise, but will a third movie actually happen? We break down the chances.
Word of mouth is important, and for all the cynicism around the gamification of box office results, that too is a conscious factor in the decision-making process of general audiences.Joker: Folie à Deuxscored a record low CinemaScore of D, which is a chilling indication of how it landed with the most enthusiastic audience members (those who went out to see it on release), and it’s impossible to ignore all of these red flags.
Despite accusations to the contrary, I believeJoker: Folie à Deuxknows exactly who it’s aimed at, but that group is a very small part of what could have been its overall audience. It is simply not the movie most of its potential fans wanted it to be. And no matter what the motivation for that was, or if it was all an elaborate joke on everyone, that’s a pretty catastrophic decision for the movie’s business.
Joker: Folie a Deux
Cast
Joker: Folie à Deux is the sequel to Todd Phillips' critically acclaimed comic book thriller Joker. Reprising his Academy Award-winning performance as the failed comedian Arthur Fleck, Joaquin Phoenix revisits the iconic DC character alongside Lady Gaga, who makes her debut as Joker’s lover Harley Quinn in this standalone continuity of the DC Universe.
